The Behaviors Holding You Back

In this episode, Alison Fragale breaks down the ideas behind Likable Badass and why the mix of warmth and competence matters. She talks about power, status, the bias women still face in male-dominated fields, and shares simple tools—like her 10-10-10 challenge—to help you grow your influence and build real connections.

Sean Riley: Welcome back. You're listening to unPACKed with PMMI, I'm your host Sean Riley. In today's episode, Alison Fragale breaks down the ideas behind Likable Badass and why the mix of warmth and competence matters. She talks about power, status, the bias women still face in male-dominated fields, and shares simple tools—like her 10-10-10 challenge—to help you grow your influence and build real connections. So with all the fancy introductions out of the way, welcome to the podcast, Alison.

Alison Fragale: Thanks for having me.

Sean Riley: Ah, the pleasure is all ours. You touched on a lot of concepts and tools during your presentation, and there are two that I want to get into right away. I’m torn on which to start with, but since your presentation was literally titled Likable Badass: How Women Get the Success They Deserve, it probably makes sense to start by explaining what exactly the “likable badass” is.

Alison Fragale: Yeah. So “likable badass” is just my catchy term for the things we're always trying to evaluate when we pay attention to other people. When we perceive people, we try to judge two things. The first is: do they care? Are their intentions good? Are they going to help make our lives better? We respect and value that, so we’re drawn to people who are warm, honest, sincere, and helpful—because those things make other people's lives better.

Sean Riley: Right.

Alison Fragale: The second thing we’re drawn to is whether we can rely on people. It's nice that you care, but I also need to know you can deliver—that if I put a task in your hands, I can trust it'll be done. So if I think you're competent, capable, organized, persistent, or decisive, I think, “Okay, you're a person who can execute.”
So the idea is we are always judging people on: Are they other-oriented? And are they results-oriented? When people show up that way, they get good outcomes from others—namely, they get respect.

Sean Riley: Okay.

Alison Fragale: They also have influence. A lot of what I talk about in my research, my book, and my presentations is how we communicate those things authentically and easily, so we get the maximum credit and recognition from our audience.

Sean Riley: Is there a nonverbal way of doing that, or does it only happen through interaction?

Alison Fragale: People get to judge whatever they want to judge, even if it's not what you want them paying attention to.

Sean Riley: Right.

Alison Fragale: I mentioned that I’m not a traditionally great smiler, and people often ask if I'm upset. Why? Because they're looking at my facial expression and making a judgment about how I must feel. We do that all the time.
Nonverbal behaviors are clues about whether we care and whether we’re capable. Then there’s “paraverbal”—not the words themselves, but tone, volume, pitch. People use those as clues, too: Are you angry? Are you confident? Do you know what you’re talking about? And of course, there are the actual words we speak and our interactions. Everything is a signal.

Sean Riley: Interesting. Okay. And I want those who didn’t attend your session to watch the on-demand video we’ll have on pmmi.org. What is the difference between power and status?

Alison Fragale: Yeah. This is why I wrote the book. I talk predominantly about status. Status is how much other people respect us and highly regard us. A person with status is someone who, in their environment, is respected by the audience that matters to them.
We all covet respect—every human being does. And for good reason: it’s a major source of influence. If you don’t respect someone, you’ll never listen to anything they say.

Sean Riley: Yeah.

Alison Fragale: So you can’t be influential without the respect of your audience. That’s often why—as a parent of teenagers—they will do nothing you tell them. It doesn’t matter how educated—

Sean Riley: They know.

Alison Fragale: They don’t respect your opinion. They often don’t think you know what you're doing, and sometimes they don’t think you truly have their best interests at heart.

Sean Riley: Right.

Alison Fragale: So they don’t listen. The same thing happens at work or in any other part of life.
Now, power is similar but different. Power is having control over resources that other people value. At work, that could be the budget, hiring and firing authority, performance reviews, work schedules, or decision-making rights. Those resources have value, and having them also gives you influence.
Using the teenager example: one of my teenagers drives. If I’m holding the car keys, that’s a resource he values. In that moment, he’s more influenced by me because he wants the resource.
Power and status are similar in that both are sources of influence. But they differ in a key way: status isn’t something you can hold. I can hold the car keys. I can be the boss. I can control the budget—even if others don’t like it. But with status, you cannot force people to value you. You can influence it, but you can’t demand it. You have to pay attention to your audience and how they’re reacting.

Sean Riley: Okay. And you provided a great example with women on the Supreme Court as a case where they have power but not necessarily status. Can the opposite be true? Can someone have high status and respect but low formal power? And if so, how do you leverage that to gain power?

Alison Fragale: Yes, that absolutely happens. You can be highly respected without controlling anything. Often at work, there’s someone who’s a true subject-matter expert. They might not have a high position and they can’t force anyone to do anything, but everyone goes to them because they know things—they have experience and wisdom.
So yes, you can have status without power. And honestly, that’s not a bad place to be.

Sean Riley: Okay.

Alison Fragale: You’re generally very influential, and status is a great springboard to gaining power. We like giving control and resources to people we respect. So negotiating for more power when you’re already respected puts you in a pretty good spot.
The situation that concerns me more is the reverse: having power but not being respected.

Sean Riley: Right.

Alison Fragale: I’ve done a lot of research there, and that’s the scenario that makes people miserable. When others see you as a resource holder but don’t respect you, they treat you poorly. They try to go around you. They try to cut you out of the power circles.
Anyone can end up in that situation, but I talk about it with women because—due to gender-based stereotypes—it’s more likely a woman with power might not automatically receive respect. Women in high-power positions who haven’t cultivated status often face disrespect, and it’s a major reason they leave organizations. That situation worries me much more.

Sean Riley: We're in a very male-dominated industry—packaging and processing. Many industries are male-dominated, but ours is especially so. Women already face unconscious bias. What are practical ways they can highlight points of similarity with colleagues who may automatically assume, “She’s a woman; she’s different”?

Alison Fragale: Great question. And I will say: yes, many industries are male-dominated, but here’s the good and bad news—it wouldn’t actually matter. When we study group bias, specifically gender bias, what we find is that bias toward women is not something only men do. It’s something people do, including other women.
So the gender makeup of an industry doesn’t necessarily create or erase bias.
But what is an issue, and what you’re getting at, is: if I look different from most of the people I work with, it’s natural for their brains to assume, “You must be different. You don’t look like me, so we probably don’t have much in common.”
That doesn’t serve us. In psychology, the strongest basis for liking and attraction ever documented is similarity. We like people who are like us.
I went to see the Chicago Cubs get horribly beaten by the Milwaukee Brewers in Milwaukee on Saturday. I come from a family of Cubs fans. And what are all the Cubs fans—who don’t know each other—doing? Hugging.

Sean Riley: That’s literally what I thought of when you said that—sports teams.

Alison Fragale: Yeah.

Sean Riley: So it's interesting that you went there.

Alison Fragale: Would you ever hug a random stranger on the street? Absolutely not. But if they’re wearing your team’s shirt? They’re getting a hug. That’s the power of similarity.
So if you look different from most people around you, one of the smartest things you can do as a skilled influencer is intentionally draw out genuine similarities between you and others. When you do, it benefits both of you—you’ll like them more, they’ll like you more, and that’s the foundation for a good relationship.
I encourage people to engage in “chitchat with purpose.” Not just small talk for small talk’s sake, but intentionally learning about others. And share things about yourself—little things. For example, now you know I root for the Cubs.

Sean Riley: Exactly.

Alison Fragale: When you share things, it gives people a chance to say, “Oh, me too!” And the more you share, the more likely someone will see themselves in you.

Sean Riley: Yeah. You also talked a lot about self-promotion and getting others to promote you, which ties into what we were just discussing. What are simple, low-effort things—what you called “small deposits”—that busy professionals can do to start building connection or respect?

Alison Fragale: I'm a huge proponent of making things both super effective and super easy because we're busy people with jobs and lives. As much as we care and as much as we want to build our status, it can't be our full-time endeavor.
I coach people to adopt the mentality of being useful to others from the moment you meet them—even if, and especially if, you think you’ll never need anything from them. When you're new in a relationship and you don’t need anything, that’s the easiest time to show generosity.
So when I'm chatting with someone—even at an event like PMMI, where I might never see them again—I listen to what they care about and think, “What simple thing could I offer right now that might be useful? An introduction? A resource? Something I’ve read that relates to their interests?”
If I can do anything that makes your life better when I'm a stranger and your expectations are low, that sends a strong signal that I care and that I know things.
Another one is to start with things you already enjoy doing and think about how to turn those into service. One man told me he loves reading nonfiction. He naturally took notes so he could remember what he read. He realized his colleagues often said they didn’t have time to read as much as they’d like, so he began typing up his notes and offering them to anyone who wanted them.

Sean Riley: Okay.

Alison Fragale: It took him maybe a minute to format, and then he’d share it. People started asking, “Have you read anything new lately?” It became a point of connection. It made him valuable. It gave him a reason to reach out without needing anything. He eventually built a list of people who wanted his summaries.
He simply asked, “What am I already doing that’s easy for me, and how can I turn it into value for others?”

Sean Riley: What if you’re what you called a “fearful self-promoter”? Maybe you’re risk-averse or afraid of sounding boastful. How do you start practicing this?

Alison Fragale: First, you have to practice—but practice in low-risk situations. If you’re fearful, I wouldn’t start experimenting at work, because the downside feels too big.

Sean Riley: Yeah.

Alison Fragale: Instead, practice with people you’ll never see again—at a networking event, at a wedding where you barely know anyone, at the airport. Strike up conversations, learn about people, talk about yourself, find ways to be helpful. Those skills translate directly to the workplace.
Another great low-risk strategy is to talk up other people. It takes zero courage because it feels good to compliment someone or brag on them.

Sean Riley: Right.

Alison Fragale: And when you talk others up, they tend to talk you up in return. You don’t have to promote yourself for people to know you’re caring and capable—others can do that for you. And they’re more likely to if you’ve already invested in that relationship by boosting them.
And when you do eventually need something, they think, “I owe Alison—she’s always talking me up.” It becomes much easier to ask for help. If talking about yourself is terrifying, start by talking up others.

Sean Riley: Very cool. That’s a great way of doing it. I could talk to you all day because I find this fascinating, but I don’t want to take all of your time. You discussed the 10-10-10 challenge, which ties a lot of this together. Can you touch on what that is and what the goals are?

Alison Fragale: Sure. The idea is: how do we get the people who already value us to go out and talk us up more? That builds status—people respecting us.
Often when I’m invited to speak somewhere, it’s because someone introduced me. Someone said, “Oh, you’re looking for speakers? Have you met Alison? She’s amazing.” When someone vouches for me, they’re building my status. That’s what we want others to do for us.
The 10-10-10 challenge has three parts that help build that habit.
First: meet 10 new people. People can’t talk you up if they don’t know you exist. Meeting new people—at work, outside of work, in any environment—widens the base of people who could advocate for you.

Sean Riley: Right.

Alison Fragale: Second: make 10 “small deposits.” Do 10 easy things that make people's lives better—no expectation of return. It can be as simple as recommending a restaurant.
And third: talk up 10 people. It will naturally come back to you.
For people who are not fearful self-promoters—those who feel confident talking about themselves—you could instead ask 10 people to talk you up. Literally ask them to go out and say good things about you.
Fearful people will never do that, but confident people can. And when you ask people who already value you, they appreciate the clarity. They already respect you; you’re simply telling them how they can help you.
So that’s the 10-10-10: meet 10 new people, make 10 small deposits, and either talk up 10 people or ask 10 people to talk you up. I recommend doing it within a week—it keeps motivation high but is absolutely doable.

Sean Riley: Very cool. I love that. I really appreciate this discussion. It was great. Thank you for giving the presentation and for taking extra time to come on and talk with me. Thanks again, Alison, for joining the podcast.

Alison Fragale: My pleasure.